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Pushing versus knight's move


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2017-07-27 03:58
lightvector In the following position:
http://eidogo.com/#EsODJvHL

I don't think I understand how to choose between A and B. In any particular game I mostly pick one based on feeling how "light" I want to be but I don't really understand it or how the position of black's stones might affect it. Are there any lectures that talk about the difference between these two?

2017-07-27 04:06
lightvector Also a related position where I find the same difficulty and don't understand how to decide. I *think* the knight's move is more common in this situation than in the previous link, but if so I don't know why.

http://eidogo.com/#1zJN245JK

2017-07-27 05:30
xcombelle Take the following with a grain of salt I'm only 2 kyu KGS.

In this precise situation I would say that the key point is what happen when black push and cut.

In all situation you spoke about, the result after the cut looks terrible.

For example in the last situation:
http://eidogo.com/#Fo0ZfXRG

The result is very bad for black. I did not check all combination of triangle position but all looks similar.

The best result white could hope looks in this situation:

http://eidogo.com/#xxi2hVVk (variation A)

But white is still attacked and black will build along the attack. So the result looks bad for white also

So the result don't looks good neither.

I actually believe that white chose an incorrect starting point.

For the first situation, looks like the Guo Juan Workshop lecture treat it (https://internetgoschool.com/auth/lectures/740.lecture )

For the second situation, it looks like All about invasion - Ming Jiu lesson 11 & 12 https://internetgoschool.com/lesson.vhtml?ls_id=321 & https://internetgoschool.com/lesson.vhtml?ls_id=326 give better options for white.


2017-07-27 14:46
runski In this position (http://eidogo.com/#EsODJvHL), playing A will help white to develop the upper side. If the black's square stone is too close and it denies white a good extension, then I don't think A is good for white. I will aim for a 2 space extension when I play A.

B is a mid-game joseki move. After B, white has Q15 as sente. If black pushes and cuts, as shown by xcombelle (http://eidogo.com/#Fo0ZfXRG), it is not that bad. Black's k16 stone has been isolated. m18 is sente. p15 is also sente, enabling white to build some center power. In the starting position, black has 5 stones and white only has 2. So we can't expect the result will be completely even.

2017-07-31 04:40
lightvector Without knowing the rest of the board and with many of the possible positions of the black stones, white did not "choose an incorrect starting point". These shapes do come up in high-level games, particularly the one in the second link featured popularly in certain openings in pro games some few years back.

As for the links that do talk about these shapes - thanks. I don't think I really found any clear new understanding. I know to check the cut, I also know many of the obvious things - e.g. the push is better when black has R13 and is less efficient, also if black as K16 the two-point extension is nice because K16 can end up misplaced, the simple push is often better if white is trying to build the top side while the knight's move is more used to make shape and reduce, the push in particular is very bad if it can't get a far enough extension, etc.

Still, there are many positions where both feel possible to me, and in many of the borderline positions, it seems random to me which one is chosen or when I get told that one is better than the other, so I wonder if there are additional principles I'm missing in my understanding.

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